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            Nick Pope on Radio Five Live

15th November 2007 Midnight to 1am

on Richard Bacon


N.P. Nick Pope  W.Wilfred the Black Farmer

R.B. Richard Bacon  S.C. Stuart Campbell

Christine a member of Five Live Team

Dave  -  a caller

Tony  -  a caller

Alan  -  a caller

Sara  - a caller

Lynne  -  a caller

Mark  -  a caller

Paul - a caller



R.B:.I wanna get the UFO debate started...Do UFO's exist? Our main topic this hour! 0500 909 693 Paul's is in Solihull. Hello Paul

Paul: Hi Richard

R.B. Do you, do you! Are you a believer?

Paul:  Nah, I'm total sceptic, but ahhem, I must tell you about something that happened about ten years ago.

R.B.: Do!

Paul: well we had to take our child one stormy night, to the hospital for stomach pains. Not wait for the doctor but go straight to hospital and A&E in Redditch, and we got up the end of the lane and we couldn't believe our eyes! There was this massive glowing disc not even a hundred foot up in the air. And it was glowing and bouncing off the far walls. Just so spellbound. and so we stopped the car, it was so still then, and we had a look.  And it was absolute real.

R.B.:  But you're a sceptic Paul! What's wrong with you? Surely that's irrefutable evidence that ufo's exist.

Paul: We..ha, ha Well the thing is that I'm sure there a military testing that goes on and things like that.  This is totally inexplicable, I've never seen anything like it again, in my life, it was glowing.  And then it tilted sideways.  And umm because my wife and son were in such pain in the car, we got back in the car and we're driving down to Redditch.  And we can see it in the distance. Know unbeknowenst we heard the next day that other people had seen something in the skies that night. and we didn't realise that er they were checking over head cables and there was no way that was a balloon

R.B. : Paul I know what that was!

Paul: Oh well it was definately something special, out of the ordinary.

R.B. : I definately know exactly what it was.

Paul: Go on then

R.B. : A dream

Paul.:  No no, I'd say that but my wife was with me.  We had to stop the car we had a child in the back writhing in agony.  And we were so spellbound we had to get out of the car for a few minutes.  And it is the most real thing I've ever seen anyway. And I really did. I can't say what it was.  It was definately  unusual.  It wasn't military, and it was right there in front of our eyes.

R.B. : But if aliens where to go anywhere in the World, would they be likely to go to Solihull?

Paul: Ha ha, probably not no.

R.B. Hey hey Paul nice one, good to meet you.

Paul: thanks then.

R.B. Quickly Alan in Hayward Heath. Hello, I know you've seen quite a few things Alan.

Alan: Good morning.

R.B. Good morning to you, tell me your story.

Alan: Well I was a member of the Royal Observer Corps.

R.B.: Yup

Alan: Now disbanded.  And a very good friend of mine shares my interest in aircraft.  It was Dennis Wood, Sunday Telegraph air correspondent. So I know my aircraft. Two occassions ones Shorham by the sea. 7 o'clock never forget it, Sunday evening.  Summer.  Something caught my eye. And out of the  sea and up in the sky were four, absolutaley brilliant white lights in a flat diamond formation.  And I looked at them, called my Mother to come out and have a look.  And as I turned they all went out,just like switching off a light. so I don't know what that was.

R.B. : What do you think it was, oh God, go on tell me your second one then.

Alan: erm I'll come back to that one.  The second one, I was in Bordeaux in France, and was going to a pop concert with some friends,in a big marquee, we got there early, so we had to queue up outside.  They were chattering away in French. I was a bit bored. And I weas looking round, something caught my eye. And I looked up and there was, there was this disc, in the sky, a pallid moon colour.  Erm, it was NOT the Moon, and it certainly wasn't a planet, it was far too big to be a planet, as far as I could tell, couldn't estimate the size. as there was nothing to compare it with. And I said to my friend "Ques que ce'est la" in my best french, (what was that?) and suddenly you had 200 french people and me looking at this thing in the sky.  It wasn't moving, it was just there.

R.B.: Well, I mean Bordeaux as a destination does make more sense than Solihull.

Alan: ah ha well certainly. On both occassions I saw objects, unidentified, were they

perhaps flying or hovering

R.B. That aliens got fasciner, I mean most people have not seen one, You're a man whose seen two, maybe aliens are interested in you, Alan.

Alan: Ha Ha they may well be zapped down something to my dna and taken it waway, I don't believe in all that claptrap. And there are a hell of a lot of very reasonable people both in military and civilian airlines who have seen things.  Perhaps they do need explanation, alot of them might be military.

R.B. : We're gonna talk about some possible explanations, in the next few minutes

Alan: That'd be great. You haven't got any aliens sitting next to you have you.

R.B. : well no, i don't believe i have.

Alan, ha ha,

R.B. we may have some listening

Alan: not even the director general?

R.B. hey Alan thanks alot for your two anecdotes, 0500 909 963. Who knows how far these transmissions go! 85058 if you want to interact with the programme. [sport and business reports]



R.B: So let's talk about UFOS. This week an international panel of former pilots, military and government officials, met in Washington, to call on the US Government to reopen investigations into ufo activity, as a matter of safety and security. And last month, during a televised debate US Presidential hopeful Dennis Kuchinitch (?) claimed to have seen a UFO, erm, he's not gonna win, eurm so do you think there is something out there? Do yu blieve in UFOs, have you seen one? Two of our callers have, two that I've spoken to have. Erm, is there perhaps always a rational explanation, for little green men and strange lights in the sky.  With me Nick Pope, who, believe it or not, used to investigate UFOs for the MInistry of Defence.  That sounds like a terrible waste of public money Nick.

N.P: Erm, well it was a fascinating job, being frank.

R.B: Did you find any?

N.P.: Erm we found certainly some incidents we couldn't explain.

R.B.: Did you find a UFO?

N.P.: We didn't find an aliens. No aliens.

R.B.: Right, so our taxes went into funding you and your team? And you were looking for UFOs?

N.P.: They went on saying 'hey if we've got something in our airspace, and it's on our radar, we need to know what it is'.

R.B.: Yes and of course UFO means unidentified flying objects, so to some extent was your job about spying on new technology?

N.P.:Sure... It was, we were certainly not hunting aliens. but yeah, you know we weren't conclusion led. We just said 'if it's solid, if it's in our airspace, we need to identify it

R.B.: Has your little team been disbanded now?

N.P. It's turned into, basically, a Freedom of Information cell.  The MoD gets fmore FoI requests on UFOs than any other subject, including the war in Iraq.

R.B.: Wow that's just cra...

N.P. : So they are not doing much investigation at the moment.

R.B.: Wilfred Emmaneul Jones is my Presenters friend tonight, he's  a member of the Conservative party, and you're known as the Black Farmer?

W: The black farmer

R.B: and you're black and you're a Farmer

W:  That's right and cos I sell Black Farm sausages, but I like the idea of a being a presenters friend. I don't think I've ever been called that before. But this is one of my favourite subjects, this UFO stuff, because I am one of those people who woud love to believe in UFOs. I would like to see one before I die, and would feel pretty miserable if I left this world and I didn't see one.

R.B.: You mean alien spacecraft

N.P.: I'll tell you what I think, I think that Man is driven to be looking for something out there. If you think about the Egyptians, it's the Egyptians building their pyramids.  It's just something in us which feels, there has gotta be something else out there. And I just think it's just a question of time, whether we get the technology before we do actually see something, some other intelligence that we don't understand.

R.B. : Ok just let me bring in Stuart Campbell in our Edinburgh office, he's a science writer, and he thinks there is always an innocent explanation, for UFOs. Hello Stuart.

S.C.: Well not so innocent, some of them a rather complicated.

R.B.: Do you think they have ever been alien space craft?

S.C.: No, I don't think that the Earth has been visited by aliens.

R.B.: Why not?

S.C.: They'd have as much trouble getting here as we would have to get there.

R.B.: We'll they'd be more advanced than us.

S.C.: Well they'd have to be more advanced than us.  I don't think they'd behave in the way UFOs did.

R.B.: Well of course you can't presume to know thow they'd behave.

S.C.: Well, if they're intelligent they'd behave pretty much like us. One intelligent species is likely to behave in the same way. But Stuart, there are particularly startling facts, there are, it's estimated, a hundred billion stars in our Galaxy-, and- there's a hundred billion galaxies at least. You'd have to say, on balance of probability there's gotta be some life out there.

S.C.: Do you think I was denying that? I can't claim that there's no life there in the universe

R.B. : and what if they are billions of years ahead of us or billions of years advanced, coiuldn't they get here?

S.C: It is possible that...

R.B.: It is possible they could get here.

S.C.: Who can say.  I haven't spent my life speculating that. I've spent some of it investigating UFO reports, which is another matter altogether.

R.B: Nick Pope do you believe we've been visited as a planet, by an alien spacecraft?

N.P.: Don't know that's the honest answer.

R.B.: But what's your hunch?

N.P.: There's some intriguing evidence and no hard proof. That's in a sense what Monday's event, a the National Press Club in Washington was about.  It was saying look there's a bunch of government, military and aviation people coming together to say 'look, whatever we think these ufos are - and we don't take any view on that - you know there are defence, national security and flight safety issues, and we should be having a proper scientific look.

R.B.: Are there really and security issues? Like what? What's a security issue? One of our callers earlier, that gentleman in Solihull,- thought he saw a space craft in Solihull, is that a security issue?

N.P.: It's if something shows up on a radar screen, and it does a speed or manoeuvre we can't match then yeah, we want to know what it is. Not least because as you said right at the top of the progrtamme, it might be, sort of, aircraft or an unmanned aerial vehicle that we need to know about.

R.B.: Might, might, might. Well it's not been a security threat yet or has there?

N.P.: Well we've had a few very itneresting incidents where RAF bases have been over flown by these things, erm where UFOs have actually landed and radiation readings have been found on the ground. So there have been some intriguing incidents that I think need proper scientific study.

R.B.: Stuart Campbell, is that true?

S.C.: No. There's no evidence for that at all.

N.P. Well I've got the evidence in the files.  You can read them on the MoD website.-

S.C-.: Yes you can read the reports but the investigations, once you start investigating the report, you find that they fall to dust in your hands. It turns out to have simple explanations for all aspects of it.

R.B.: David in Sinderford in Gloucester, Hello Dave?

Dave: Hello there.

R.B.: Now you believe that you've seen something.

Dave: Yeah a week last friday, I was on the late shift out in the carpark.

R.B.: Late shift at what, what do you do Dave?

Dave: Oh I'm a Parts Manager.

R.B.: Ok

Dave: In the truck business, and I was out in the carpark waiting for a delivery and all of a sudden a red light appeared going across the sky, fairly slowly.

R.B.: Aeroplane

Dave: No, definately not. There was no noise, there was no flashing.

R.B.: Was it last friday? That's bonfire night!

Dave: Yeah and just behind it - I don't know how high in the sky, it was miles high - then there was another red light that appeared, then another, then another.  Four in all. Just suddenly appeared, they were going dead in line, and equidistance apart, and they were going across the sky slowly, and then  all of a sudden, one by one after about, I'd say five minutes, it's a if they went behind a cloud.

R.B.: Seriously though a week or so ago there were alot of fireworks about,

Dave: No these were not fireworks, the were dead in line, you could've put a ruler up against them with  your eye and you would not have got them deviated at all.

R.B.: Now, What's your hunch Dave?

Dave: They were going same speed and same distance apart.

R.B.: Helicopters?

Dave: No, no, they were far too high for that. There was no flashing lights, no noise, I mean this was aobut eleven o'clock, half past eleven at night. They were coming towards me, there was no noise at all.

R.B.:Stuart Campbell, what do you think that was?

S.C.: It sounds like reports of mirages, I've investigated many many times. I guess the night was clear, it was cold, and some bright source of light, was the cause of a mirage, a long distance away.  I couldn't prove that without knowing exactly what the time was, what the - I could gaurantee that if I got all the details I would find a mundane explanation.

R.B: Ok, right Dave, thank you for your call, and we'll have more on this in a moment. 0500 909 693 call in tonight.  Do UFOs exist? It's twelve twenty five.


[Victoria Derbyshire advert, subsription info and ad for radio five live]


R.B.: Dear Richard, I've just had some wonderful cheddar cheese...Bagpuss cheese...

Richard, I can't listen to your show because I've been abducted by aliens! says Dan in Solihull.        Those aliens just love Solihull. So, we're talking about UFOs. By the way, I've read that out,       there's something else going on tonight, I want you to send


[text to a friend to advertise Richard Bacon show]


R.B.: So Do UFOs exist? Loads of texts on this.  NIck Pope is here,  worked for the MoD which is quite remarkable, not that in itself, but the fact you worked investigating UFOs for the MoD. A lot of people I think, will be surprised that the MoD had such a unit.

N.P.:They've had one since 1950, and er, if you go on the MoD website, just put the term 'UFO' in and you can read some absolutely fascinating case files

R.B.: 1950, no space craft, no aliens

N.P.: But plenty of unknowns. And you know, at the end of the day alot of this is about our quest for knowledge, and scientifc study.and you know, Scientists study all sorts of things, which they haven't found yet. But that doesn't mean they should stop looking.

R.B.: The quest is over, you've got the knowledge, we've not been visited by aliens in spacecraft,

W: Yes but how do you know that?

R.B.: Ahoh, Wilfred

W: Yeah but you're such a cynic, he's such a cynic [talking of R.B.] I think what's really interesting in this discussion is that, you can't use logic, to discuss a subject like this, because it might be beyond our bounds of logic. Cos if you go back, er a hundred years ago, or three hundred years ago and um the concept of having planes flying in the sky.  They would've been feeling just as odd about that, as you are about UFOs! I just think it's about how we allow our minds to go on to a different plane beyond logic.

R.B.: Wilfred Emmanuel Jones is a Conservative Party candidate and a farmer. Look Wilfred, if we've been visited by alien spacecraft there's a pretty good chance we'd have some descent footage of it, particularly if it had happened in the last few years, people'd be filming them on their mobile phones. Isn't it interesting that with the proliferation of cameras built into phones, there here have been fewer and fewer UFO sightings.

N.P.: No I don't think there has been, it's just the media,

R.B.: fewer that the media has taken seriously

N.P.: well, it depends whether the media is having bit of an obsession with the subject or not, and sometimes it loses interest, and sometimes it perks up.

R.B.: Ah yeah ok UFOs are developed by the Yanks, British, the French, and the Germans. The latter being most probable that they developed them in the second world war. I guessed he must be talking about military technology is he then?

N.P.: There's a whole kind of Nazi saucer, erm conspiracy theory, doing the rounds.

R.B.: Peter Gardener says UFOs are nonsense.  'Ooh look a light in the sky, it must be a UFO, not a reflection off a plane.  OOh scorch marks on the ground, a UFO must've landed.  Oooh I seem to have lost a few houres out of my life, I must've been kidnapped by aliens.  Or perhaps gone to sleep for a while'. somebody told me that they had been talking to some aliens and taken aboard their spaceship.  A quick mental exam later, and they took him home.  So he wasn't mentally ill then. But God was an alien.

S.C. : I know it goes on forever that one.

R.B.: Here we go, well we get the sarcky drift. Let's bring Stuart Campbell back in. He's in our Edinburgh studio. The's a science writer says that by and large there is an innocent explanation.  Erm Stuart do you get the sense that these days there are fewer reports of UFO sightings, or that there is for whatever reason, less interest in this topic.

S.C.: Erm I do get that sense. I  told my taxi driver that very much - as taxi drivers quiz you on your way in to the studio. I do detect less interest in it, it's like Loch Ness aswell, there's hardly any reports of anything happening there.

R.B.: ha ha interesting point!

S.C.: So the taxi driver accuses me of the whole world getting more cynical.

R.B.: Do you take my point that now everyone has got a camera in their pocket and

S.C.: Yes you are quite right, in fact, one of the explanations for the Loch Ness was that the more observers you had round Loch Ness the less anybody saw anything mysterious.  And the same could be said, as you've just suggested, for things seen in the sky.  The trouble is people still don't know enough about phenomena that you could see.  They don't know enough about satellites. They don't know enough about mirages.  They don't know what astronomical objects they can see in the sky,

R.B.: Now I've been reading today about the Rendlesham Forest Incident. Nick Pope I imagine this is one of your favourite topics

N.P.: Indeed, I reopened the investigation of it.

R.B.: Did you

N.P.: Yes,

R.B.: Good! Public money went into that I hope!

N.P.: ha ha

R.B.: Now of all the causes in all the world. Uh Now this was something that happened in Suffolk.1980, I read it and I thought it sounded like the biggest load of nonsense, that

I'd read in some time.

N.P.: Which bit did you read then?

R.B.: Oh the scorch marks on the ground, all the usual,

N.P.: I've brought in the Defence Intelligence Staff assessment of the radiation readings if you want?

R.B.: Some of the aliens had domed heads

N.P.: Oh no, that document's a fake! There's no aliens seen there.

R.B.: Right well what was seen? And who saw it?

N.P.: Several United States Airforce personelle, based at RAF Bentwaters and Woodbridge. One of them got close enough to touch the side of the thing, and could see strange symbols on the side. The Defence intelligence staff, assessed the radiation readings as significantly higher than background.

R.B.: I've now been handed the radiation readings. I'm gonna go to the News, I'm going to read those radiation readings, which will mean nothing to me!  

N.P.: I just know you I thought you'd want to see them!

R.B.: No, and then we'll come back to them, 0500 909 693, Nick Pope is here, Stuart Campbell and I'm pleased to say aswell that my celebrity friend tonight is Wilfred who is a Conservative party member and a farmer who is not entirely cynical on this topic. If you've seen a UFO let's hear from you. If you think it's rubbish, let's here from you. Ah News time now though it's twelve thirty three, Justin Green.


[goes to news]


R.B.: Ok, thank you very much indeed. UFOs, yes or no? Do you believe in them?  'I believe in UFOs, but I'd believe in UFOs before I believe in Derby County!' says an anonymous person. I was recently sitting in my garden when a small spherical object came hurtling through the sky, crashed to Earth, I thought it was a UFO, but it turns out it eas David Beckham's penalty! Returning to Earth from Euro 2006.  It's a joke from 2006 but it's been used for other penalties.  Uum let's have some proper ones though, there's a lengthy one here from Chris Sutcliffe, now I won't read this entirely but, he recently saw an object in the sky.  His colleague at work saw it aswell.  Triangular in shape.  They both verified it, they had no idea what it was.  A lot of people with stories like this, contacting the show tonight - Do you believe that UFOs exist, as in, well eer UFOs gnerally, but more specifically and importantly have you seen a UFO you think could well have been an alien spacecraft? 0500 909 693 Mike Sewell has the Sport.


[break for sport]



R.B. 12.38 Evening forward slash good morning to you! I'm Richard. We're talking aobut UFOs. Do you believe they exist, have you seen a UFO? 0500  even if it's just nonsense, 909 693  I also asked you earlier to send the following text message to your friend...he's rabbiting on about UFOs 'pigs might fly' is how that one goes! Back on that in a second, lets go to the mighty Rod Sharpe....younger Bush and immediately hired the men his father had liked the least....Rod Sharpe the Five Live institution., he'll be here in twenty minutes.Tony's in Newton.  Hello Tony

Tony: It's very nice er, I'm very pleased that you've got this subject on, well er.

R.B.: Tony is it a subject that should be taken seriously?

Tony: Of course it should, yeah, I can tell you what my beliefs are.  I cant say I've seen one physically.  There's a man called Creme, c.r.e.m.e. is how it's spelt, and he gives eurm, monthy lectures at Friend's House Euston Road.  Not on UFOs, but on the subject of a great teaching called Mitraia being in London, living in the Asian community in London, and he does claim to know about UFOs! Because he's in touch with a Master of Wisdom.

R.B.: Right. Tony tell me a UFO point, go on!

Tony: Well, he says that they're friendly, and they're here.  One of their jobs is to clean up alot of nuclear pollution because nuclear radiation is one of the most deadliest, deadliest pollutions there is!

R.B.: So aliens are here cleaning up our pollution.

Tony: Yeah they are

R.B.: But why would, why would they be doing that, Are we employing aliens?  Whose their employer?  Whose given them them that job?

Tony: They've taken it on themselves.  But it's much more dangerous than we think it is.  Nuclear radiation is.  It's much more dangerous and our instruments don't measure the higher octaves in nuclear radiation.  It can be much more dangerous than we think.  Terrible, terrible pollution.  And they are helping us, they are our friends! Our best friends, and they're, they mostly come from, Mars and Venus.  And they are in aetheric matter, they can make themselves visible if they  wish, if they wish.

R.B.: Is that? Where did your friend get this information from Tony?

Tony:  Well, I said, this man called Benjamin Creme is preparing the future path for the Martraia and Christ called Ma'ardee or 'the Messiah'.  If you're not religious, it's a world teaching for everybody.  But...

R.B.: Are you a Scientologist Tony?

Tony: No, but no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm no religion really.  I'm just interested and I've been interested in this for many years in UFOs.

R.B.: But you think that the, you know we can look at Mars through the telescope, the telescopes that we have, you can analyse the surface in some detail, and we've had the odd probe go there.  And you still think these Aliens are coming from Mars to Earth to clean up our radiation?

Tony: Yes! Mars and Venus, Mars and Venus, Mars you may see all...

R.B.: [cuts in] Tony, you don't really believe all that do you?  Why would an alien clean up our radiation?

Tony: Yes I do, I do,and do you know what?  If you want proof, look at the crop circles! The crop circles are made by aliens, made by, mostly made by UFOs of Mars and Venus.  And no man could make them, I don't know whether you've seen them on the website.

R.B.: Tony there's loads of explanations for those, you're stating this as fact!

Tony: Yeah but have you seen them, I mean seen them?!

R.B.: Oh they're impressive! I know that! Erm, right well, that's all Tony.  I don't know what you could do more for us, why do they secretly clean up our radiation?  Why wouldn't they make themselves known to us, share the technology with us.  Aaah, but none the less, Tony's here and Nick Pope.  I bet you believe all that?

N.P: Errmm

R.B.: I bet you investigate that!

N.P.: How on Earth can I evaluate a claim like that!  I mean you know there's a lot more

R.B.: Investigate that!  What do you think of that? Crop circles, and things like that.

N.P.: Eerm, made by people probably

R.B.: Sarah, Sara? or Sarah is in Cardiff. Which version is it?

Sara: Let's go for Sara.

R.B.: Ok Good morning, thank you for phoning. Do you believe in UFOs? We're talking about alien spacecraft, that sort of thing, do you believe in that?

Sara: I can't say that I do Richard, people sew the idea, sew the seeds of the idea that UFOs are out there, and then we look to the skies for explanations.  And that kind of creates a frenzy and people are geared up to see what they want to see really.  It's like, Most Haunted when you put a load of people in a haunted house. and you know you're expecting to see a ghost and then they hear as noise and suddenly there's a poltergeist in the room, and people make up their own minds about it you know, whip up a frenzy about it, and then people are going to feed off that.

R.B.: On Most Haunted they just see orbs.  They see these tiny dots of light and get really excited by it.

Sara: Exactly, exactly and my friend whom I'm arguing the point with that you'fve raised, he believes these myths that aliens have visited us in the past,we've go these ancient hieroglyphics that there was proof of that and then, once I'd stopped laughing at him, they, yeah, and you never know about the Pyramids, he believes all of that. And that they lived in that, it is in the past.  And we're not good as a civilisation and when we get up to their standard, they might pop back and see us occsasionally.

R.B.: He believes all that passionately

Sara: Yes I believe he does

R.B.: And he believes aliens built the pyramids?

SAra: He believes the aliens built the pyramids in the alingment with stars and that heiroglyphics that show us people with wings, and that's how they depicted angels and he was completely sober at this point in time, so I find it difficult to understand.

R.B.: Well thank you for his contribution in the background.  But Sara, I mean is that, is that any more ridiculous, than believing that Moses parted the Red Sea?                       Sara: Erm no but I think that people have various reasons for clinging to those beliefs, you know and I think maybe we're a little too dismissive about people that say they've been abducted by aliens, and they firmly believe that.

R.B: They've got issues Sara, haven't they?

Sara: They have got issues, yeah they have got issues, and if they want to stand on the top of a hill and identify satellites and aeroplanes as UFOs, you know, best of luck to them, I think!

R.B.: Sara, great call thank you very much. Sara's in Cardiff.  Wilfred Emmanuel Jones is here, Conservative member of parliament, Wilfred, what have you made of our discussion so far on UFOs?

W: What's quite interesting is that some people have certain beliefs, which I don't necessarily agree with.  But you know, you should allow them to have that belief if it's going to keep them happy.  But what I think that we should never do, is have absolutes. So this absolute certainty that they don't exist.  I just think is a bit mad

R.B.: Why? Why is that mad? Now hang on a minute, no

W: Are you saying

R.B.: Are you absolutely certain that fairies don't exist?

W: I don't know. I don't know. [spoken in a relaxed manner] What I'm interested in

R.B.: Are you absolutely certain, I can't fly?

W: I don't know, hold on a second

R.B.: You can have some absolutes.

W: No, No no no, what I'm trying to say is, what I'm really interested in is what this Gentleman does, which is that its about explaining, trying to understand phenomenas that there is no logic for.  That is what I find quite fascinating. And erm I just think, and this is where I stick on the subject, is that, we as Man we operate on the basis of logic.  But it doesn't necessarily mean there isn't other things which are beyond our comprehension at the moment, and I think, you know, if you always start to address this kind of thing in a logical way, then, I think, obviously you're gonna be

R.B.: But there are loads of things which are incomprehensible, Science is exploring this

W: Let's look at the evidence. Psychics, people who feel things, it's beyond logic, but well do you then say, they don't exist, that they haven't experienced things,  ha ha this man needs a slapping!

R.B.: Ha Ha, err, Stuart Campbell do you want to, you are a science writer, a sceptic on this topic, do you want to just make a comment on this point. You're in Edinburgh. I should point out

S.C.: Yes. It's right to errm, not to errm, Absolutes certainly aren't a line that we should be taking, science gives us the evidence absolutely for this or that, it's just a case of what is more probable?  What is the evidence for this or that, it would be stupid to say, absolutely that some can or cannot exist.  It's just a question of what is more probable, and in the case of aliens visiting Earth, it's just, its fairly improbable.  The evidence just doesn't suggest it.

R.B.: You would have to say that it's probable because life has to exist elswhere, there are up to a billion galaxies out there.

S.C.: Yes you would have to say that.

R.B.: But then again that life, could just be single celled amoeba.

S.C.: Of course it could.

R.B.: Erm Nick Pope is here, investigates UFOs, did for the Ministry of Defence paid for by the public, our taxes going to fund his work. Stuart do you believe it's worthwhile the government, the MoD investigating that?

S.C.: Well it's a spectre, they weren't all really investigating they were just recording people's reports.

N.P.: Excuse me, yes we were! They've got the files on the MoD website you can see them for yourself! Over a hundred pages.

S.C.: They are not investigations.

N.P: Oh yes they are.

S.C.: They are just a collection of people's reports and suggestions by somebody of what it might be

N.P: Intelligence staff, defence intelligence staff consulted, radar staff consulted, Ballistic Missile Early Warning Centre at Fylingdales consulted, oh that's an investigation Stuart, make no bones about it!

S.C.: It's an attempt, it's an attempt.  But it doesn't draw any conclusions.  YOu'll have to read my book, you'll find alot of proper investigations in there!

R.B.: You mentioned Fylingdales in Nortrh Yorkshire.  It's an Early Warning System isn't it?

N.P.: Yes indeed, yeah

R.B.: It also monitors space junk aswell doesn't it, and it's a bit of a satellite system if you like, on the Yorkshire Moors. Now if they were, now, if alien spacecraft were to visit or had visited us, as has been suggested by people texting and phoning the show, Fylingdales would've picked up on it wouldn't they have space tracking radar.

N.P.:I mean Fylingdales are some of the people whom, in our investigations, Stuart, we're consulting and yes they've got space tracking radar

R.B.: Have they found an alien spacecraft? Have they got incontrivertible evidence?

N.P.: No they haven't.  No, no, absolutely not, but they have got uncorellated targets.  That they pick up from time to time and those are the unknowns that we should ask our science [interrupted], science should want to know what those things are!

S.C.: They found an unknown, that's not very helpful is it.

N.P.: Well do you give up? Or do you investigate?

S.C.: No, You find some other explanation.  I find many of these radar reports are, they're spurious echoes from various targets, that sometimes the operators don't understand.

R.B.: Ok. Let's have a look at some texts: 'Stop I will die if I laugh anymore'says Jo Armstrong ha ha, 'I texted someone they texted back turn off Bacon and look out the window there's a UFO flying over Wimbledon Common!. 'Hello. The only reason I'm joining in this debate is if you take it seriously' says Kieron in Ireland. I will put two simple but undisbutable pieces of evidence, that no one scientifically or otherwise can deny. The famous Belgian UFO that was chased by two F-16's.  The pilot that actually chased this craft, said on camera that every time he locks on his radar, or weapons lock, it [UFO] took a ninety degree turn and accelerated at speeds impossible for any current technology.  He confirmed various craft and ground radar was seeing the same thing.  Second, there are many pilot sightings documented in various reports.  There is video on UTube apparently showing redordings of pikot accounts of UFO sightings.  Although this should be taken with a grain of salt.  You can ask a pilot whether or not the majority had seen a ufo and the answer is 'yes' but were too afraid to report it. 'Please don't treat this subject like an  episode of the X-Files, it needs serious consideration'

N.P.: I totally agree with that and funnily enough the Belgian General who was Chief of Staff when that case was investigated, was at the National Press Club event on Monday, one or two Generals there, and a Formal Governor, someone from the Federal Aviation Administration.

R.B.: What was this about again?

N.P.: It was basically a press conference at the National Press Club in Washington D.C. it was moderated by a former Governor of Arizona, we had two retired Generals, erm all sorts of radar operators. It was just serious government military.

R.B.: Of all the mysteries in all the world'

N.P.: Well, so we said we'll look as long as the pilots are seeing these things, and they are tracked on radar, we should be looking into this properley, not just saying on belief, well, you kknow

R.B.: Stuart Campbell, Stuart Campbell

S.C.: A pilot is not trying to deal with ufo reports.  They may have had very complicated training but it does not include trying to deal with an anomalous object in the sky which doesn't resemble what he's been trained to deal with like an enemy, because he's a pilot we must take his report seriously.  Policemen and other people who are apparently in positions of authority.  They are no better at reporting or identifiying  objects in the sky as the average Joe.

R.B.: Well, they're just higher up

S.C.: That doesn't mean they've got more knowledge.

N.P.: They see objects in the sky all the time and are less likely to  misidentify it. But it's not, I've got a high light, it's not the pilots, it's when the sighting is corroborated by radar.

S.C.: So many reports I have seen go past that I can immediately idfentify as some kind of air object.

R.B.: Stuart, is that Belgium one famous, it sdeems extradordinary with two F-16's

S.C.: It's not as famous as Rendlesham Forest as you've been talking about.

R.B.: Did that really happen? Did two F-16's shoot at a UFO?

S.C.: It was a particular confusion of anomalous radar reports, and pilots being misdirected to follow something. The data were very confused and an investigator would just hve a terrible time trying to sort it all out. I just assume - My conclusion is that it was a mistake.

N.P.: I think it was the general in charge

S.C.: Probably directed by people who believed in UFOs.

N.P.: The General in charge probably knows better than you Stuart.

R.B.: Can we move on, Stuart, can we move on please. Christine.

Christine: Just a quick text from Richard in Maidenhead says 'I'm a Ryan Air pilot and I'm the Captain. I'm sure we saw a UFO ov er Hamburg this evening.  It over took us at a very high speed, and appeared on our radar 3,000 feet above us.

R.B.: I should think as a Ryan Air pilot you see some very peculiar things, not all of them onboard.  Lynne in Bedford, you've had a UFO in your back garden.

Lynne: I have!

R.B.: Tell me all about it please!

Lynne: Well, very quickly, uum I was indoors hoovering. My daughter was in the garden, looking up into the air and I wondered why.  So I went out into the garden, to see what she's looking at, and above the roof in our garden, was a double sided star shape object, quite big hovering over the top ofo ur roof of our house.

R.B.: Right

Lynne: And

R.B.:In Bedford

Lynne: No, this was in Hertfordshire. There was five people at the time in our garden, that also saw it.  And when I called the other people to have a look at it, it went off into the middle of the street.  Which was quite a wide street.And it just sat, it was just up in the air.

R.B.: How many feet or meters wide would you say? Can you compare it some building or some cars

Lynne: Well, I can compare it probably to the roof of two houses.

R.B.: Ok

Lynne: You know like normal houses.

R.B.: Lynne, what's your hunch there, did you think it was an alien spacecraft?

Lynne: Yeah I did, I do I really do.

R.B.: What made it come to your house?

Lynne: I don't know

R.B.: Do you think it was interested in you?

Lynne: I shouldn't think so but

R.B.: Why not, why shouldn't it be interested in you though

Lynne: It's got no reason to be interested in me.  And that's what has baffled me all these years, I don't know why it was there, what it was doing there.  But it's something I have never seen before, and I would love to know what it was.

R.B.: Ok Lynne, thanks for your call, thanks for sharing that.  Mark's in Chippenham.  Hello Mark.  We'll have to be pretty quick here Mark, we're nearly at the end of the programme.  Tell me what you want to say

Mark: Well, I'm really concerned. You's lot have an elected memember of Parliament.

R.B.: Prospective Mark

Mark: Well if he's elected right, he's gonna be stood up there representing the people but he's saying we've followed the realms of logic and that's explaining some things, then we look beyond logic.  How does he explain the very logical fact, that the Pyramids are stood up in the middle of Egypt.  We can't even rub two bricks together to do that! You couldn't even fit a piece of paper in there!

R.B.: Mark, I don't know what your, Mark, you have to explain your point in a nutshell, I didn't quite understand or follow that one!

Mark: Yeah, I'm trying to make sense, that you've got all these people, trying to say aliens exist, while we're busy trying to muck up the ecosysttem, global warming and everything else. - if I get this across here - if aliens are around, whose to say they are not from our planet, and whose to say they didn't leave things behind.

R.B.: I think to be honest, Wilfred, would you agree with that?

W: Well, I absolutely don't understand the point he's making

R.B.: I do appreciate your phoning up, but this attacking on Wilfred, what do you mean by it?

Mark: Egypt, monks and other things, you've got these, the Plain of Jars in Laos I think it is, and there's other things going on around the planet and we just explain, including these UFO spy cameras, whose to say they're not all related and they'd do all that we do in the future which is technology, give up on planet Earth cos if we mess it up that much, they're doing the same thing trying to tell us about them coming back from the same thing.  That's the point that this guy made earlier, well said earlier about cleaning up your nuclear waste

R.B: Ok, so you believed that did you Mark?

Mark: Yeah, just like you've got lots of peole with unsubstantiated claims in religion.

R.B.: We're gonna have to leave it there.  Wilfred Emammanuel Jones thank you for coming in.  Good to see you. It's been alright hasn't it.  Good to see Nick Pope and thanks to you Stuart up there in Edinburgh, and Nick Pope you've got ten seconds, final point

N.P Uum yeah, I'd say there are some defence and national security issues here, but to any listeners who may be wwant to look at this in more detail, look at the Natioanl Archives qnd look at the MoD website.  Have a look at some of the investigations we've done.

R.B.: Ok thank you very much Aah, right have a look at those investigations.